"I FELT HURT WHEN I SAW AGHDAM"
ANS
21.01.2008 17:34
OSCE Minsk Group American co-chair Mattew Bryza’s exclusive interview
with "Hesabat Mirshahinle" (Report with Mirshahin).
OSCE Minsk Group American co-chair Mattew Bryza’s exclusive interview
with "Hesabat Mirshahinle" (Repoer with Mirshahin)
– Mr. Bryza, every time when we meet I ask you "What’s news"?. I want
to ask you the question again. What news is there after your visit
to the region?
-First of all 2008 is a new year. I wish you and everybody all the
best. As to the procedures the news is that presidents exchanged
their opinions with regard the proposals the co-chairs handed them
in Madrid and the spirit of the talks is constructive. However this
does not mean that the presidents solved all the problems. There are
some to be settled. But both of them move on the same direction and
this is good of them.
-Where did we stop? Namely what stage did we stop at?
-You mean …
-Yes, within the level that diplomacy permits.
-No. Details of the talks should not be publicized. This concerns
the presidents only. I can only say that both presidents have common
opinion on the right of the refugees to return to their lands,
certain relations between Daqliq Qarabaq and Armenia, withdrawal of
troops. There is common conception on this issue. However nobody will
agree in anything until everything is agreed in total. This means to
predict what will be agreed out or not is difficult.
-That is nothing is agreed out until all the issues are settled?
-Yes, I just wanted to say so.
-Recently I acquainted myself with the Bako Saakyan’s shorthand report
in press conference. He told Daqliq Qarabaq will not yield at the cost
of its security and independence. We have heard Robert Kocharyan’s
position several times on the issue. He also states Daqliq Qarabaq
never can be placed under Azerbaijan. And Azerbaijani President told
very strictly in borderline regions that Azerbaijan will reach its
territorial integrity by any means. I don’t see any compromise neither
from Armenian side, nor official Baku. However you say there will be
compromise. If there is no yield in the aforesaid fundamental problems,
then let me ask: Where is the compromise?
-A very interesting and meaningful question! It concerns the issue on
status of Daqliq Qarabaq. It’s one point. And very important. But there
are other points as well. very point. But there are other problems
as well. And they are also concerned in this conflict. If the point
is the issue on status, then it’s difficult to settle it. But this
is just our work.
This is our mission. Our activities continue, but I cannot predict
any result. I can only say there is certain difference between the
positions of the sides.
-You carry out talks, learn opinions and make proposals. Do you think
they believe you?
-I think you should ask it them…
-And you, do you feel their trust on you? You see you have contacts
with them…
-I feel it. Yes, I do. I say because you ask me. I feel they trust
me and my friends Fassier and Merzlyakov.
-So, is there a mutual confidence between you – the three mediators?
-Yes, there is. And there is a solid cooperation between us with
regard the Daqliq Qarabaq conflict.
-May be the solution of Daqliq Qarabaq conflict takes much time as
you enjoy this cooperation?!
-No, this means that we can effectively hear the opinions of the
presidents and add them into our documents. This is very important.
-What did your statement mean about Turkish-Armenian borders, one
nation- two states? Give some clearance to this issue, please.
-There are cases of this kind. It’s normal.
-We have such opportunity.
-O.K. The question was: Is improvement of Armenian and Turkish
relations possible without regulation of Armenian-Azerbaijani Daqliq
Qarabaq conflict?
I said I hope. I have said and now I add that there is a policy
in Turkey: one nation – two states. This is a fact. It’s simply
a fact. But I did not criticize or support it. I simply noted, and
asked neither Turkey nor Turkish government to change its policy. I
simply publicized our policy.
I said we want Armenian relations with Turkey and Azerbaijan be
improved. I said I would play certain role in this approachment.
-You said the relations between Armenia and Turkey should be improved
irrespective of the regulation of Armenian-Aazerbaijani Daqliq
Qarabaq conflict?
-I said we’d like it. We’d like. But we may want this or not.
Hoewever the decision on this issue concerns governments of Turkey
of Azerbaijan only. As to Daqliq Qarabaq conflict if we solve this
problem, then relations between Armenia andTurkey would be improved.
-You visited contact line of the troops where the monitoring was
held. What did you feel there?
-I realized the situation is serious in frontline as distinct from my
previous visits. I felt affect of the conflict on simple citizens. I
felt ache when I saw Aghdam. I’m not Azerbaijani. But I felt hurt as a
human being. I understand why this conflict so hurts Azerbaijanis. It’s
unjust that people cannot live in their own houses. However it’s
possible to find solution of the conflict. But no compromise is
possible without yields.
-What did Aghdam look like? I haven’t been there since 1993. What
did you notice in Aghdam?
-It looked like the president described. It was just city of ruins. But
I was more affected by what lacked there. There are no citizens, normal
houses in the city now. This reminded me Warsaw city of after-war
period. I’m Poland by my origin. I know history well enough. I’m
long acquainted with this country – it’s 11 years. But you can feel
it better as a human being when you are there.
-Were you warned where to go, where not? This place is mined?
-Yes, of course.
-I ask it from security point of view. Did special persons guard
you there?
-Yes, we had special uniforms there. Monitorings have certain
procedures.
The risk becomes less if there is normal communication between the
sides during the monitoring. But risk is ever risk.However this is
my work.
– What is your opinion, Mr.Bryza, how many visits would be enough to
hear at least good news on the settlement of the conflict?
-This depends on the leaders of both countries. Everybody would
like to know time of leap. But to put foundation for the leap is
necessary. And we are engaged with this. People think rapid leap is
not so far. May be…
-Do you think the new head of state of Armenia may start everything
again?
I cannot say. I think they know they should not lose everytning
obtained up to now.
-What is the next step? You met with the President. Was he satisfied
with the results?
Yes. We listened and heard both presidents. We – the mediators must
analyze, have talks with each other and prepare new version of the
document.Then we’ll present it to the presidents and continue the
procedure.
-What news did you give to Azerbaijani President this time?
-This is no leap news. We gave opinions of both presidents to each
other.
-When will you visit Azerbaijan next time?
-I think this will be in spring.
-Good Luck! We hope the progress will be soon as you said.
-I have no doubt of it.