JAN CARNOGURSKY: "THE ARMENIANS OF KARABAKH CANNOT BE CONSIDERED AS AGGRESSORS"
Noyan Tapan
Feb 6, 2008
YEREVAN, FEBRUARY 6, NOYAN TAPAN. A delegation of Slovakia led by
Mr. Jan Carnogursky, the former Prime Minister and the Justice Minister
of that country, founder of "Christian-Democratic Movement" party, paid
a three-day visit to Armenia on January 18-21. Within the framework
of the visit, in Yerevan RA Foreign Minister Vartan Oskanian thanked
Mr. Carnogursky on the occasion of the adoption of the resolution on
recognition of the Armenian Genocide by the Parliament of Slovakia
in November, 2004 and handed him "Mkhitar Gosh" order awarded by the
President. It is the highest state award for activity in the judiciary.
We present you the three-party interview with the great friend of the
Armenian people in which Ashot Grigorian, the head of the Armenian
community of Slovakia, businessman, adviser of occasional staff of
the RA Foreign Minister, participated. Mr. Grigorian was a principal
organizer of the passage of the Genocide resolution in the Slovakian
parliament and he also was the author of the resolution text.
A.G. – I would like to once more express on behalf of the Armenian
people my gratitude to Mr. Prime Minister and our lobbyists in Slovakia
for the work they have done. We jointly began the elaboration of
the issue of adoption of resolution on recognition of the Armenian
Genocide by the National Council of Slovakia. Mr. Carnogursky defined
the whole strategy of the issue’s progress. He suggested submitting
the issue for discussion of any sitting of the parliament not as a
separate issue, but it will be connected with the discussion of the
issue of giving consent to the candidacy of Turkey’s membership to
the European Union. Turkey was not ready to resist us at all, and
our hard efforts to pass the issue in parliament were a success.
It is interesting, what feelings did you have while participating
in the process and passing the issue of recognition of the Armenian
Genocide in parliament. Weren’t you anxious that, first, the resolution
could fail, and second, that after the adoption of the resolution
Slovakia would face difficulties, and your party would lose its rating?
J.C. – I have been a member of the Slovakian Parliament for 7 years,
a member of the country’s government for 6 years, which closely
cooperates with the parliament. That is why I knew very well all the
details of the parliament’s work, knew how to submit the resolution
of recognition of the Armenian Genocide to parliament to have it
adopted. On the other hand, Slovakia had nothing to be afraid of
Turkey. I only knew that Turkey had two weeks to get ready to resist
the adoption of the above mentioned resolution by the parliament and
will use its instruments, and even more, the instruments of the United
States. It was supposed that the U.S. Ambassador to Slovakia will
visit the leaders of the parliamentary parties and will try to exert
pressure through the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Knowing all that,
we together with Mr. Grigorian and my Christian Democratic Movement
(CDM) friends, worked out the adoption strategy and tactics of the
above mentioned resolution.
Mr. Grigorian gave me the draft resolution based on the texts of
resolutions on recognition of the Armenian Genocide adopted in other
countries, I worked out the recommendations concerning the resolution
to be submitted to the Parliament of Slovakia, and everything passed
successfully.
N.T. – What pushed you forward to make those steps?
J.C. – I must say that ordinary citizens of Slovakia know little
about Armenia, they know that Armenians are a Christian nation and
well-educated.
And it was enough for sympathy towards Armenia in the Slovakian
society.
Those feelings are enough for the pro-Armenia proposals to receive
support.
It is the general condition. For me it’s a condition that I, perhaps,
knew with specific sides that Armenia is, let’s say, in the tension
front with Islam, that the Armenia nation has talented sons in all
over the world, and that Armenia should be supported. It was the sum
of all these that pushed me forward to promote the issue of resolution
on recognition of the Armenian Genocide. On the other hand, I wanted
Slovakia to enter the list of those countries, which have adopted
such documents.
A. G. – Turkey openly supports Azerbaijan. They say: "we are one
people and two states." Naturally, Armenians are anxious about it. In
addition, the Pan-Turkish geopolitics exists, the goal of which is
to unite Turkish-speaking countries under a large, strong roof and to
throw a challenge to Europe. From that point of view for Armenians it
would not be bad if Turkey joins EU, as for Armenia it will be easier
to live having its neighbor Turkey as a member of EU. However, now
Turkey "plays" in two directions: one is the European Union, for which
Turkey strives at the bidding of that country’s progressive forces. On
the other hand, in that country there is a growing number of people,
who consider that in case of the fulfillment of the Pan-Turkish dream
they cannot care a damn about Europe. But the problem of Armenia
they were not able to liquidate even with the Genocide is in the
"throat" of those thinking so. And the only chance of the Pan-Turkism
apologists is Azerbaijan’s being able to win the already finished
war with Armenia. Here the position of Slovakia, an EU member,
in the issue of considering Armenia an "aggressor" is interesting,
as this opinion is spread by Azerbaijan in Europe.
Second: The international law considers the principles of "peoples’
self-determination" and "territorial integrity" as equal. In my
opinion, it is the "crash" of modern politics and diplomacy that
no one is able to prove which of these principles is primary. What
is your opinion of it? In this issue my colleague’s opinion is also
rather interesting.
J. C. – In general, the collapse of the Soviet Union is a very
important episode of the development of the events. Before Armenia’s
joining the Soviet Union Nagorno Karabakh was Armenia’s territory,
and when the Soviet Union collapsed, the Armenians wanted to restore
the state of affairs, which existed before Armenia’s joining the
Soviet Union.
On the other hand, I understand that after experiencing the bitterness
of being the victim of the 1915 Genocide the Armenians do not feel
safe with Turkish-speaking people. Therefore, Karabakh wished to
ensure its security through uniting with Armenia. I see the strategic
reasons of breaking up of the war between Karabakh and Azerbaijan in
the very thing.
I live in Slovakia, three thousand kilometers away from Karabakh
and Armenia, I do not know all the details. However, the knowledge
of strategic episodes of the events is enough for me to consider the
war by Karabakh as defensive. Of course, the prevailing majority of
people living there have always been Armenians.
As for the priority between the principles of "peoples’
self-determination" and "territorial integrity," I believe that if
the Armenians of Karabakh were sure that Azerbaijan was able to
decide their fate within the international law, maybe they could
wait. However, we saw that the Karabakh inhabitants could not be sure
that when making part of Azerbaijan their fate will be decided within
the international norms, as well as norms protecting human rights. And
they chose the way of deciding their fate on their own, moreover as
it was preceded by the slaughters of Armenians in Sumgait. Taken all
of this, the Armenians cannot be considered aggressors.
A. G. – It logically emanates from this that in the condition, in
which Karabakh is, the international observers or the international
community’s opinion should be ready to accept the peoples’
self-determination right as primary, as in the formed situation
Karabakh’s return into Azerbaijan’s jurisdiction is impossible,
especially if we count the number of refugees from Azerbaijan to
Armenia and in the opposite direction.
J. C. – I would like to add that certainly, the U.S., Great Britain and
the EU countries, which are ready to recognize Kosovo’s independence,
cannot blame Karabakh and Armenia for violating the international law
against Azerbaijan, as Karabakh does the same as Kosovo. Karabakh can
be blamed by Russia, which does not recognize Kosovo’s independence,
but we know that it will not happen.
A. G. – And really, the use of double standards in the West has
become a usual thing. When they say that different things should
be discussed in different ways, we say that certainly, in no case
parallels should be drawn between the cases of Karabakh and Kosovo,
as Karabakh wishes to achieve self-determination on its historic land,
and Kosovo is quite a different version. However, if you decide to
recognize Kosovo’s independence, don’t forget that we should discuss
the problem of Karabakh with you. And unless the West recognizes
Kosovo’s independence, it means nothing: the Nagorno Karabakh problem
should still remain a matter of discussion.
N. T. – Slovakia is an EU member. Armenia is a country, which is on a
geopolitical crossroad, in a region with a speed growing economy. What
can the sides do to assist each other in the respect of development
of regional cooperation?
J. C. – The economic cooperation can be carried out between Slovakia
and Armenia first of all in the spheres of tourism and trade. It will
be good if businessmen are engaged in issues of economic cooperation
without states’ interference. It is a different matter that Slovakia
can convey to Armenia the experience of legislation’s improvement,
which has been accumulated on the way of membership to EU. First of
all, we should speak about bringing Armenia’s trade legislation in
line with EU’s legislation. Armenia should step by step implement
these legislative reforms to improve the conditions of trade with
EU countries for Armenian businessmen. Though with the use of the
legislation harmonious with the EU legislation Armenia may not be
an EU member, that harmonization will be useful for Armenia. And in
the future Slovakia can become Armenia’s out-post in the issue of
membership to EU.
Slovakia’s economic contacts with Armenia are much closer than with
Georgia and Azerbaijan. In this respect the Slovak business already
considers Armenia its out-post in the region, though none of the Slovak
businessmen has formulated that idea yet: the historic process just
develops in this direction.
A. G. – In the last six or seven years Slovakia deepened its economic
contacts with the very Armenia in spite of the fact that for instance,
Georgia in difference to Armenia has an Embassy in Bratislava. The
reason of this is the fact that Slovakia is the great friend of
Armenia. I already cannot say that Slovakia is Azerbaijan’s friend,
and this is undoubtedly the result of our lobbyist activity, and I
am happy and proud of it.
Getting off the point of economic cooperation, let’s talk about two
more issues. The left wing prevails in Slovakia’s government. The
Christian Democratic Movement is more close to Christian Armenia. What
relations does the party have with the "left" government and what
political future awaits Slovakia? And the future of the Armenian-
Slovak relations depend on it.
J. C. – As for today’s strategy of Slovakia, I consider that the
Christian Democratic Movement, which has become an opposition should
formulate even its positions contradicting government’s positions and
not take as a basis general liberal-right plans, which are brought
from American universities. I am sure that the Christian Democratic
Movement will have correct relations even with the government having
another political orientation.
A. G. I would like us also to speak about Slovakia’s role in the
political sphere and in Europe-U.S. geopolitical "games." The Slovaks
are Christian.
Slovakia has, as Armenians say, such brother related in kinship
as Russia.
The Russians for us, Armenians are a powerful people with a too strong
spiritual culture, which is a great value for a European. The United
States has its system of values and its peculiarities, which are often
unintelligible for a European. If I do not understand them, it does not
mean that they are bad. On the other hand, the one I understand is dear
to me. I understand very well the Slovaks and Slovakia, therefore they
are dear to me. The same regards Russia. What is your attitude to the
above mentioned values, what role do they play in geopolitical respect?
J. C. – In the period of "communism" for the majority of the Slovaks
the United States had much authority. I consider that it was right,
as the United States was to free even Russia from "communism." And
the United States played an important role in that struggle. However,
the things developed the way that after the downfall of "communism" the
U.S. seems to continue its struggle this time against Russia. Slovakia
does not wish to become an ally of the United States in that struggle,
as in the past, emanating from historic conditions, Slovakia used to
see Russia as its ideological partner and support when making part
of Hungary in late 19th century and early 20th century. Therefore,
anti-Russian views have never been widely spread in Slovakia.
And though Slovakia became a member of NATO, which I consider
Bratislava’s error, and the result of the United States’ intrigues,
nevertheless my country does not wish to take part in any anti-Russian
game, for instance, the story of possible construction of radio
location stations by the U.S. in the Czech Republic. I will mention
that in difference for instance, the Czech Republic and Poland,
there are no American missiles in Slovakia.
Therefore, Slovakia can even assume the role of a mediator between
Russia and the EU.
N. T. – Are there any programs of developing Armenian-Slovak cultural
contacts?
J. C. – Slovak art-lovers are familiar with some Armenian cultural
values, in particular, Aram Khachatrian’s music and William Saroyan’s
literature. At present Gurgen Hovsepian is one of the Slovakian
National Theater’s opera solo singers. We would be very glad if the
Armenian Diaspora of Europe and American countries supported Slovak
artists in presenting themselves in those countries.
A. G. – I organized Days of Armenian Culture in 2005-06 in Bratislava,
within the framework of which renowned violinist Sergey Khachatrian
performed Aram Khachatrian’s concert. The Armenian Philharmonic
Orchestra performed brilliantly.
I have reached a preliminary agreement with Slovak Minister of Culture
Marek Mad’aric to organize his visit to Armenia in March. There
are large-scale programs of developing Slovak-Armenian cultural
contacts. I think the Ministry of Finance of Slovakia will also
provide some financial assistance to organization of performances
of high-class Slovak artists in Armenia. I will mention that I have
twice sponsored performances of renowned Slovak jazzmen in Yerevan.
I plan to credit production of a joint film of the Slovak Television
and H1 with the insurance of the Slovak Eximbank. The respective
agreements with the directors of these TV companies have been
already reached. I envisage selling the Armenian-Slovak film to
European countries’ TV companies. There are also other programs
to be implemented through crediting, for instance, broadcasting
performances of Slovak opera and variety stars by Armenian TV channels,
as well as broadcasting video clips of Armenian singers by the Slovak
Television. I hope these programs will be fulfilled.
In any case, I always pin my hopes on my Slovak friends. They never
make me repeat my request and are always ready to fulfil proposals
connected with the development of Slovak-Armenian relations, for
which I’m very grateful to them.